Dr. Bremer, who is member of the journal's international board, tells his own story as professor of theology and discusses the issues of Catholic theological departments in Germany; structure of the theological departments; relationship between university and Church bureaucracies. His special focus is on the Concordat between the Catholic Church and the German Länder on the issue of training of clergy and teachers of religion. He also speaks of the relationship between the Catholics and the Protestants within the system of theological education. Bremer believes theology is a part of universitas litterarum and means a rational reflection about the faith in the context of academic freedom.

Keywords: theology, sciences, university, Church and State, Concordat, training of clergy.

Как вы пришли в богословие?

Томас Бремер: Я вырос в традиционной католической семье в Мюнхене, был в детстве министрантом, участвовал в молодежной работе прихода, потом стал руководителем такой группы. В школе у нас, конечно, преподавалась религия, и я собирался стать учителем латыни и религии. Но мне хотелось заниматься еще чем-нибудь, и я начал изучать славянские языки - русский

T. Bremer "If German theology is good for something, then it is thanks to academic freedom..." (interview) / / State, Religion, Church in Russia and abroad. 2016. N 3. pp. 251-265.

Bremer, Thomas (2016) "If German theology is of some value, then it is due to academic freedom..." (interview), Gosudarstvo, religiia, tserkov' v Rossii i za rubezhom 34(3): 251-265.

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and Serbian (at that time "Serbo-Croatian"), and then - the churches of Slavic countries; he studied for a year in Belgrade, in the late 1970s and early 1980s he had a lot of contact with representatives of the Russian emigration in Munich. After graduating from the university, I received an invitation from my future supervisor to become his research assistant in Munster. He was looking for a person who is engaged in Orthodoxy in Eastern European countries and in Eastern Europe in general. In Muenster, at the Faculty of Theology, I defended my dissertation on Justin Popovic, Nikolai Velimirovic and other Serbian theologians.

But what at you it was standing in certificate of ownership about end date university?

It said that I had passed the first state exam in the subjects of Catholic religious pedagogy, Latin and Russian. If my life had gone differently, I would then have entered a two-year internship (the so-called "refendariat"), and then passed the second state exam and become a teacher. After defending my dissertation, I was going to write a second dissertation, that is, habilitation, but at that time the war in Yugoslavia broke out. At that time, the Catholic Church had a lot of relevant projects, various meetings between Orthodox and Catholics, etc., and in Germany there were practically no specialists who would know Serbian and Croatian, would understand the church situation, and would also be Germans. So for several years I worked as a consultant for the German Bishops ' Conference and the Catholic organization Pax Christi, advised individual bishops, often traveled to the region, met with the heads of all religious organizations - with the pope, with patriarchs, with cardinals, with the head of Sarajevo Muslims, and so on. It was a time of intense contact. I also managed a project in which Serbian, Croatian, and Muslim historians met to somehow coordinate their positions, which was not easy, but very interesting. In 1995, the war ended, and in 1996 I became the head of the German Society for the Study of Eastern Europe, having worked in this position for about four years; at the same time I was engaged in research and published a lot. When a vacancy for the professorship of Ecumenical Theology, Theology of Peace and Conflict was announced in Munster in 1999, I was awarded the position and have been a professor at the University of Munster ever since.

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You do you teach on theologian faculty?

The University of Munster has the largest Catholic theological faculty in Germany, as well as the largest Protestant theological faculty. My areas of study include theology of inter-Christian relations, the study of ecumenical processes, relations between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church, and other Western Christian traditions. The second area is the history of the Eastern Churches, theology, Russian Church history, and Yugoslav Church history. I deal with issues such as the role of religions in the process of achieving peace, the importance of national and ecclesiastical identity. Students of theology can study certain topics with me, which are counted as regular lectures and seminars. In addition, our faculty traditionally teaches an introduction to Church history, a lecture that I share with two colleagues. That is, every student comes across me, and if someone has an interest in Orthodoxy or the Eastern Churches, they can already attend my special courses. This is already a matter of specialization.

That there is except the main ones items - kind of exegetics, dogmatics or church service stories - are still special offers items. You do you teach special an item?

No one, of course, will want to say about themselves that, for example, others teach basic subjects, and I teach some additional ones. But in principle, it is. According to the Concordat between the Catholic Church and the various German states, there are a number of compulsory subjects that the states finance in the faculties that train priests. But almost all federal states also have additional disciplines. At our faculty, there are two professorships of ecumenical theology (usually one, if at all), one professorship of missiology, and three or four professorships of religious pedagogy and teacher training (along with pastoral theology). We have a professorship in adult religious education. Probably, no other Catholic theological faculty in Germany has such a wide range of subjects that go beyond the mandatory set of subjects. V obyazha-

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тельный набор входят: философия, Ветхий и Новый Заветы, церковная история (древняя и история Нового времени), фундаментальное богословие, догматика, нравственное богословие, часто социальная этика, церковное право, часто литургика, гомилетика и религиозная педагогика.

Это касается и факультетов, которые готовят только учителей религии?

Catholics do not have such faculties. According to the Concordat, dioceses are entitled to State funding for the training of priests. The concordat was concluded in the 1930s, and then no one imagined that there would come a time when so many people would study theology without intending to become priests. The logic of the Concordat is designed to train priests in full-fledged faculties that have a full set of subjects and are eligible for awarding the degree of Doctor of theology. These faculties are included in state universities. That is, I, being a professor, receive a salary from the state, I am an employee of the federal land, I earn the same amount as other professors, and I work in the same conditions as, say, philosophers or physicists. If we award a Doctor of Divinity degree to someone at the faculty, we do so as a faculty of a public university, and this academic degree is recognized by all state authorities. However, faculties also have ecclesiastical powers to award academic degrees. This means that the degree of "doctor of Sacred Theology" is recognized by the Catholic Church worldwide. Therefore, when we hold a solemn act on the occasion of awarding the degree of Doctor of Theology, everyone present pronounces the Creed. This is not a religious act, but an academic one - with a report, with welcoming words from the dean, and so on. But before the dean presents the letters to the candidates, all recite the Creed, each candidate is presented with a Bible, on which he swears, saying the formula: "I confess this faith, I pledge myself to remain faithful to it, and also to live and teach as befits a Catholic theologian. I swear it before God and His holy Gospel." After that, the dean shakes the candidate's hand, saying "I hereby award you a doctorate", and hands him a certificate. In essence, this is one act, but it consists of two components - church and state.

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Means, for catholic organizations theologians - priests or lay people - all ways lead in university?

No, there are other ways. Above, I spoke about the Catholic departments of state universities, of which there are about a dozen and a half in Germany. If there are not enough candidates for priests in a certain diocese, this is a problem for the faculty. Now the situation is similar in the Diocese of Essen, where there are only two or three candidates for priests. Until now, they studied in Bochum (the Diocese of Essen was founded in the 1950s, and the University of Bochum, together with the Faculty of Theology, in 1970), but now the bishop of Essen decided to send his candidates not to Bochum, but to Munster, because there is no point in maintaining an entire priestly seminary for the sake of three students. This, in turn, means that the Bochum Faculty of theology does not meet the conditions of the Concordat regarding the content of the faculty. The state can now reduce, for example, two professorships at the faculty. Although they are listed in the Concordat, since the faculty no longer trains priests - in the absence of candidates - the departments of liturgical theology or ecclesiastical law are not needed, because future teachers do not need to know liturgics or ecclesiastical law. Although so far there have been no such abbreviations.

This is a fundamental problem: very few people become candidates for the priesthood. Mostly, future teachers of religion go to theological faculties, who can study not only in full-fledged faculties, but also in the so-called institutes of Catholic theology, most often part of the faculties of philosophy. This is why students here earn a doctorate in philosophy (Dr. ) rather than theology, even if the dissertation is written on the topic of dogmatic theology. Although the Concordat says that the state is committed to funding teacher training, it does not need a full-fledged faculty with ten professors, most often four or even two are enough. And these institutes - there are many of them in Germany - are engaged only in teacher training.

1. Students of the Faculty of theology who intend to take holy orders live in a "priestly seminary", receive spiritual care here, and undergo spiritual training for their future ministry.

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There is a third possibility of education: church institutions that are not affiliated with state universities. These are the highest order schools: the Jesuit Order has, for example, its own higher school in Munich, the St. Georgen School of Philosophy and theology in Frankfurt am Main. In addition, there are ecclesiastical faculties - in Paderborn or Trier, which are funded by dioceses (they can be compared with the spiritual academies of the Russian Orthodox Church). There is a higher ecclesiastical school in Fulda with a faculty of theology, and there is a Catholic university in Eichstatt - a non-governmental higher school, also with a faculty of theology. But they are also full-fledged faculties, with a teaching staff of more than 10 professors. That is, in Paderborn, Trier, Fulda and Eichstatt, there are purely ecclesiastical faculties funded by the church. But all of these institutions combined, including the Order schools, have fewer students than the state theological faculties; perhaps even fewer than the Munster Theological Faculty alone.

Than differ Professor similar training center establishments from professors theology department state-owned enterprise university?

The difference is that one is a civil servant and the other is a church official. But in a scientific sense, they are equal. For example, a professor at the Ecclesiastical High School in Paderborn can go to work at the State University of Munster.

В какой момент студенты начинают именоваться "кандидатами в учителя" и "кандидатами в священники"?

Все учатся вместе, мужчины и женщины, и у всех одинаковые экзамены. Поступая в университет, студент должен указать будущую специальность, например, Magister theologiae. При этом будущий священник записывается на "церковный экзамен" и становится "кандидатом в священники". Это значит, что в данном случае церковь уполномочивает нас принимать у него экзамены, хотя условия и экзамены - те же, что у всех студентов. "Церковный экзамен" полностью соответствует экзамену по специальности Magister theologiae, но разница в том, что на экзамены к буду-

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щему священнику иногда приходит соборный капитул или викарный епископ. Затем кандидата рукополагают в диаконы и т.д.

Что нужно для того, чтобы поступить на богословский факультет? Например, рекомендация приходского священника?

For the study itself, nothing is needed, except for the corresponding school certificate, which allows you to study at the university. But if someone wants to become a priest and live in a priestly seminary, they must fulfill certain conditions, which include a conversation with the parish priest, a baptismal certificate, a certificate of chrismation, a recommendation from the parish priest, and so on. In a priestly seminary, the candidate's maturity is checked. But none of this matters to us at the university. Sometimes immature, heavy people come to us. We don't keep track of who goes to church, who is a believer, who is baptized. I believe that if someone comes to me for a lecture or studies at the Faculty of theology, then the church is interesting to them and they are baptized. But from a formal point of view, it doesn't matter.

Let's take a look on this the situation with your eyes States: why finance theological issues faculties, if church already it has with your own data training programs establishments? What kind arguments at university level theology department in use it yours presences in university?

First, the State concluded a Concordat and pledged to maintain theological faculties in universities.

This it was long ago...

However, the contract is still valid today. Otherwise, we would have to re-discuss the Concordat, which means that we would have to rethink many points. After all, the Concordat regulates not only the presence of theology at the university, but also religious lessons at school. In addition, churches take on a lot of work in the social sphere. If the state stops finan-

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If the church's theological departments are banned from public universities, it will provoke a chain reaction and call into question the need for church hospitals, kindergartens, and so on. In other words, the state cannot expunge theology from the Concordat and leave everything else. Then the church tax system would also have to be rethought. In other words, the issue of theological education in state universities would lead to the need for a new regulation of relations between the state and the church. But I don't see anyone striving for this, either in the church or in the state.

And from the point of view of theology, it is very important that it is one of the main faculties on the basis of which universities once arose. After all, Western universities were made up of the faculties of philosophy, medicine, theology and the Faculty of Liberal Arts (artes liberales). It is important for theology to be in dialogue with other sciences. For us theologians, it is a challenge to present a Christian model of interpretation of the world in an environment defined by modern natural sciences. But also representatives of other disciplines-I can see it! - they say that it is good that the university has theology. At one university, I talk a lot with a Russian historian who considers himself an atheist, is not interested in religion, but understands that neither Russia nor Europe can be understood without religion. Therefore, he is happy to keep in touch with me, be able to invite me to make a report, and so on. That is, for other disciplines - although, of course, not for everyone - it is important to have theology nearby.

Theology is part of the universitas litterarum, a body of sciences. We view theology as a rational reflection of faith. Theology is not a religious study, it does not study phenomena, but approaches the matter from the point of view of a believer, but at the same time it works not with intuition, but with scientific reflection. Theology should put its methods on the table in exactly the same way as mathematics or chemistry, that is, it should remain within the framework of logical awareness. It would never occur to us to use the "You don't understand this"argument. Not everyone believes in God, but if faith is accepted as a condition-even if it is a working hypothesis-then theologians ' argument should be clear. We really claim to be rational, to be rationally comprehensible. I am well aware that religion and chri-

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Christianity is more than a "ration", but university theology claims to be a real science.

In GDR, with alone sides, were theological issues faculties in government agencies universities, but with another - safer it was to come to religions through literary studies or philosophy, for example, by studying Dostoevsky. For german ones theologians this, second, way, probably, few attractive?

Based on the German experience, I can say that it is a great advantage for us, theologians, to be part of a university. A theologian reads the Old Testament texts differently than a specialist in Hebrew literature. The ecclesiastical historian extracts different information from sources than the secular historian. Philosophy and fundamental theology are two different things. We don't just serve the church, we don't just train personnel for the church. Theology has something to say in the general chorus of sciences.

But conceivable whether some "unhappy people cases"? Say, theological department faculty counts, what dissertation acceptable, but for churches she problematic. Where it ends university card the science and begins a church?

To become a professor at the Faculty of Theology, you need the consent of the local ruling bishop. That is, the minister (Minister of Science, Minister of Education) or rector, who sends an invitation to fill a vacancy, obtains the consent of the bishop. In addition, in the Catholic Church, anyone who receives his first professorship needs the consent of the Bishop of Rome, which sometimes takes months...

Famous nihil obstat...

Yes, nihil obstat - "nothing hinders". The bishop can only refuse in two cases that relate to "faith and morals" - fides et mores. However, I don't remember any cases of applying this rule based on fides. As for mores, we used to

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similar cases (for example, if the professor, being a priest, got married). After receiving the nihil obstat, the candidate receives the title of professor and becomes a lifelong civil servant. And then the church doesn't have many opportunities to influence that particular person. A situation is possible (the most famous case is Hans Kung), when the bishop deprives the professor of the right to teach Catholic theology, that is, cancels the nihil obstat. This is mostly the case when priests have renounced their holy orders. We have more than 400 theology professors in Germany, and such cases happen maybe once every five years. Since the professor is a civil servant, and from the point of view of the state, professors are not forbidden to marry, this is not an argument for the state. Therefore, the state cannot dismiss such a professor, and, as a rule, he is transferred to another faculty (there was a special, very resonant case with Kyung, and a separate institute was created for him). But such a professor loses the right to teach Catholic theology. At the same time, since the church still has the right to the vacant professorship, a vacancy is announced. And the state is forced to finance both professors, as well as two assistants, two secretaries, and so on. So if the ruling bishop were to permanently deprive theology professors of nihil obstat, the state would have questions.

As for undergraduates or graduate students, in all my 16 years as a professor, I do not remember a single case when someone's work was discussed on the subject of conformity or nonconformity with the faith. Disputes are only about the scientific level of the work. For example, we defended a paper in which the author (who later became a professor) reflected on the question of whether it is possible to form something like a liturgical community on the Internet. In Germany, evangelical and Catholic services are broadcast live on TV every Sunday. But I turn the TV on and off, and the Internet assumes interactivity, and then the question arises whether, for example, an Online confession is possible. The topic is not indisputable, but academic freedom implies the possibility of reflection on such issues, and here we are not talking about heresy, but about theological opinion. On another occasion, we discussed animals: do they have something like religiosity? how do we understand animals from a theological point of view? I was skeptical, but we discussed it. In other words, these are rather marginal topics. The main part of the works is defended on completely traditional theological topics.

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themes. But I don't remember a single instance of church interference. In our country, everyone is required to publish their dissertations as a book, and after publication, a scientific discussion begins; if the book is bad, if the theses are not thought out, then the author gets bad reviews. The debate is on a scientific level, and the bishops know that their task is different. If German theology is good for anything, it is because of academic freedom. However, freedom does not imply permissiveness.

In Munich and Munster there is how catholic, so and evangelical theological issues faculties. Which between with them the difference? There are whether between with them some kind of collaboration?

When I was a student in Munich, there were famous Catholic theologians Heinrich Fries and Protestant Wolfhart Pannenberg, who conducted joint seminars. In Munster, we specialize in the history of the Ancient World, and Catholics and Protestants work together in this area, but they also work with Egyptologists, Coptologists, Semitologists, Hetitologists, archaeologists, specialists in Judaism - all of them look at specific issues from different points of view. Catholics and Protestants have joint lectures and seminars, for example, on religious pedagogy or liturgics. Our faculties have very good relations. Once a year, a meeting of professors from both faculties is organized, with a report, etc., and the deans work closely with each other. We have no rivalry. The difference is in the construction of the educational process. For Protestants, bible studies play a more important role, so they have more professors in their respective subjects, and they spend more time studying ancient languages-necessarily all three: Hebrew, ancient Greek, and Latin.

But not reviews whether church university name theology in the quality of additional information mission statement fields of study, which allowed would her affect on self university or on society?

No, it doesn't. There are university churches - Protestant and Catholic, university preachers-

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the entire university is invited to attend the services. There is also a university student community. But this is not proselytism and not a mission, but a kind of"service". I repeat: theology considers itself as one of the scientific disciplines in the chorus of other scientific disciplines. Not as a conductor or composer, but as one voice out of many. We do not consider our mission or any church projects to be our task. If students have religious problems or questions, we usually can't help them. The religious life of students is not our responsibility.

Otherwise speaking, university name theology not counts mine a task transmission religious organizations beliefs?

No. If I say that theology is a rational, scientifically grounded reflection of faith, then I am reflecting on my faith, but I am not convincing anyone of anything. I try to convince others only of what I have come to in a scientific way - for example, the need to read certain sources in one way or another. But none of my colleagues see themselves as intermediaries in finding faith.

What is it percent teachers, having sacred San?

In Catholic departments, there is an unofficial criterion that 50 percent of the faculty must be priests. But the problem is that we basically don't have enough priests. Therefore, there are not many people in the holy orders with qualifications that would allow them to participate in the competition to fill the vacancy of a professor of theology. Sometimes the ruling bishop insists that a particular bid be given to a priest, and this can lead to conflicts if there is not a single priest among those who submitted the bid. This problem will get worse, because we have fewer and fewer priests, and the few we have are needed in parishes. And for the university, such a priest must be released from service for three years so that he can defend himself, then he needs a few more years for habilitation, and then the diocese already loses him as a spiritual counselor.

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How much noticeable presence diocesan administration the bishop on theologian faculty? There are at him, for example, mine an office?

No, these are completely different worlds! The bishop does not have any functions in the faculty. When we had a new bishop in Munster, we invited him to the faculty to get acquainted. Once a year we have a meeting - to which all the professors are invited - with our bishop and three others - Aachen, Essen, and Osnabrück - who send their candidates for the priesthood to study with us. Such meetings have a specific topic, there is a two-hour conversation, a joint dinner, and so on. Sometimes we are invited to ordinations, and sometimes the bishop comes to the faculty on some solemn occasion - on the occasion of defending a dissertation or awarding an honorary doctorate. For example, when the Greek theologian Metropolitan John Zizioulas received the title of honorary doctor from us, there was a solemn act, the local Greek metropolitan was present, as well as our bishop. But he always comes to the faculty only as a guest. Its responsibilities to the faculty include issuing the nihil obstat, and the faculty is also required to coordinate changes in the curriculum with it. For example, we have a new specialty magister theologiae, in which we need less Old Testament and more church history; we are creating a regulatorium, and this document needs to be discussed with the church. As a dean, I often encountered this, but, as a rule, there were no problems. In other words, the church and the Faculty of theology are different institutions with different goals; they are related in a certain sense, but administratively completely independent of each other.

Than differ protestant theology in university? How at of them the situation is as follows affairs - better or worse?

Protestants have a different approach to the church. Professors play an important role, because it is not for nothing that it is said that they took over the teaching of the church among Protestants. Protestants do not have the same close cooperation with the local bishop as Catholics. But I wouldn't say it's better or worse. It's the same with the ancients

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languages are just another tradition. At the same time, some Catholic faculties are more different from our Munster Catholic faculty than Protestant ones. But we also have Orthodox and Islamic theology to train religious teachers.

In which structures they enabled?

Muslims - since there are many of them - have five professorships that form the Center of Islamic Theology. The Orthodox have only one professor who is part of the Center for Religious Studies. I work together a lot with an Orthodox colleague, we are now preparing a book together, organizing joint seminars and excursions for Catholic and Orthodox students.

At you no feelings, what university name theology in Germany is located under a threat abbreviations? There are whether in the company some kind of resistance to your presence theology department in university?

I would not say that theology is under threat. Another thing is that religion and the church in Germany are changing. I would not say that religiosity is fading away, but churchliness is going away. That is, people are still religious, they have religious needs, but they no longer meet them in the church, although many participate in church rites - baptism, wedding, burial. At the same time, those who are not practicing Christians welcome the presence of the church: they are glad that there is a church on their street, that the bells are ringing there, and that someone is going to the service... At present, I do not see any serious anti-church sentiments in the society. Quite the contrary: thanks to the new pope, the image of Catholics has significantly improved.

At the same time, theology should be aware of the need to constantly prove the necessity of their presence at the university. We sometimes have disputes in the rector's office about finances, but not about closing the Faculty of theology. The dispute is about the size of the budget. And we never refer to the Concordat and say: "You owe us." We want to be treated the same as all other faculties. Lawyers and doctors constantly have to demonstrate their " ren-

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report card", take measures to ensure that students go to their faculties. This also applies to our faculty. Theology, which does not go beyond the church threshold, or the Faculty of theology, which considers itself as an institution serving the church, would not be able to cope with such a task. We believe that our students can learn important, good things.

Like what? Theological issues faculties contribute to to unity societies?

No, that would already be "rendering services". After all, artists, musicians, and poets do not "provide services" either. The question of profitability is not so important here. It is good, of course, that we train qualified theologians, priests, and teachers. We are still too often - and the Orthodox are no different - inclined to follow the letter, both in the upbringing of children and in education. But theology at university has another important aspect: academic freedom! Experience shows that it is not necessary that a person, having freedom, begins to make mistakes.

I talked to you Anna Briskin-Muller

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